Opinion- Electric bicycles

[AMuzi]

https://www.cycling-insights.com/slider/the-true-environmental-impact-of-e-bikes/

--
Andrew Muzi
a...@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Tom Kunich]

Indeed, ICE engines do harm to the environment but very little and people will NOT give up their cars. They give a freedom before the car completely unknown and the younger generation BSing about "sustainability" will learn it the hard way. 3 hours on an E-bike in the rain will convince anyone. And where do you think that the electricity is going to come from to charge cars and bikes?

including a change of form from an ICE generator to electricity doesn't sustain ANYTHING.

[Roger Merriman]

Can’t imagine many folks would be attempting 30+ mile commuting distances
that’s ride it occasionally on a nice day in summer distance than
regularly.

Roger Merriman

[Andre Jute]

> Roger Merman
>
The cycling community is largely responsible for its own failure to convince anglophones (I don't know what went wrong in other countries but suspect that bicycles are viewed as poverty transport) that the bicycle is the right way to go. In the first instance cyclists are observably not generally the brightest and the best of humans, and their absurd assumption that they know best for everyone else is by itself an argument not to give them a hearing. (Romember the once sympathetic journalist who after a couple of hours in Krygowski's company described him a "scold"? That's the very opposite of good publicity for cyclists, and it pinpoints what makes them so unpopular) When you add that to the fact that a small minority of smugly self-satisfied cyclists, the Vehicular Cyclists, are elitists (I don't know why they think they're an elite -- the only ones I've ever met are morally and personally ugly) actively hostile to mass cycling because masses of cyclists will get in their way on the road. The VC wouldn't do so much damage except that the rest of the cyclists can't agree on when to break for lunch, or whether separate facilities are a good thing, and a hundred other matters, by which time they don't have even a finger on power, never mind a firm grip, so cyclists get pushed about from pillar to post and can do nothing about it. Currently on this forum we find a thread reporting on teenagers reflecting society's attitude to cyclists -- which led these kids to run over and kill a cyclist for sport: Death Race 2023.
>
Andre Jute
It's embarrassing to be an enthusiast for a mode of transport so widely populated by self-lacerating quarterwits and other undesirables.
>

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:18:13 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>:

>https://www.cycling-insights.com/slider/the-true-environmental-impact-of-e-bikes/

That's an advertisement for an e-bike conversion kit, utilizing a 250 W
front hub geared motor (eeek!), controller, display, and one of two
battery sizes (90 Wh and 180Wh) in the form of a powerbank. 2.6 kg for
the big version. Legal for 32 km/h at max in UK, 25 km/h in most of
Europe.

It is sad to read such motorization propaganda from a country with a
famous cycling tradition. But that's to be expected from a startup
selling motorization conversion kits, of course.

Some comments.

Cycling with your own muscle power makes you fit over time and allows
you to ride far and fast. Unmotorized cycling and fitness are mutually
dependent. People who nevertheless propagate e-bikes conveniently ignore
this dependency.

This creates a paradoxical situation. Motorizing a bicycle extends the
radius of action and thus allows, at least in theory, to replace car
trips with something that looks like cycling. And if you force
two-wheeled users to move their legs, at least a little, it looks like
cycling all the more. And if you limit the studies to people who are
already prone to a sedentary lifestyle and its likely consequences, you
can even prove a benefit, that it's better than sitting in a car. That's
what they call "policy-based evidence."

Unfortunately, the benefit is a tiny, ephemeral effect, a straw fire. In
countries with a still existing cycling tradition people mostly switch
from a bicycle or from walking to an e-bike, not from the car. Countries
that don't have a relevant amount of cycling traffic might get some
e-bike traffic and some pretty statistics ("biking doubled over the last
two years!!"), but no real benefit and no lasting effect.

My hypothesis is that the one group using an e-bike will initially ride
a little further and a little faster on average due to the motor
assistance, but will then stagnate and in the long run will not suffer
any less from the consequences of physical inactivity than someone who
uses other motorized means of transport and does not compensate for this
with sporting activities.

The group of those who use the non-motorized bicycle as a means of
transport, on the other hand, will not be able to avoid what the e-bike
was created to avoid: intense exertion. And this can be found in sports
science studies: intensive effort is necessary and effective to acquire
and maintain performance and endurance. Let's enjoy that. :)


--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

[Roger Merriman]

Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:18:13 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>:
>
>> https://www.cycling-insights.com/slider/the-true-environmental-impact-of-e-bikes/
>
> That's an advertisement for an e-bike conversion kit, utilizing a 250 W
> front hub geared motor (eeek!), controller, display, and one of two
> battery sizes (90 Wh and 180Wh) in the form of a powerbank. 2.6 kg for
> the big version. Legal for 32 km/h at max in UK, 25 km/h in most of
> Europe.
>

Uk it’s 15.5 Mph or 25 Kph beyond that it’s an illegal motorcycle unless
you want to get it approved and insured taxed and so on…

Which is about right for E bikes main purpose ie either EMTB or commuting.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:58:58 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Can’t imagine many folks would be attempting 30+ mile commuting distances

30 miles or about 50 km is very rare even for commuting distances.

About 92 % of all commuters have a commuting distance of less than 50
km, here in Germany. About half of them (48 %) have to travel a distance
of less than 10 km from home to work.

Source:
<https://www.destatis.de/EN/Themes/Labour/Labour-Market/Employment/Tables/commuter-1.html>


I didn't belong to that priviledged group.

My long time commute was 12 km at rush hour through a crowded city and
then up in a hilly terrain to another municipality. For a while, I did
that on a Dutch bike*) needing two hours per day, initially. Did that
after riding half of that distance for about a decade before, on flat
terrain on a light road bike**).

By continuing for a few years and then switching back to a newly
purchased race bike***), I was able to reduce my commute time to about
one hour per day. It takes determination, extertion and time to get from
here to there. But make no mistake, after a while you usually don't
experience it as something difficult or excerting anymore.

> that’s ride it occasionally on a nice day in summer distance than
> regularly.

During summer and on normal roads my commute was often a real joy.
During autumn and on roads accompanied by mandatory "bicycle
infrastructure", not so much. Have a look at this picture.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/1999/DSCF0008.JPG>

Notice something different between the part of the road used by moving
cars, compared to the part mostly avoided by cars?

Another example from my 2x12 km commute
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-3548.jpeg>
Nice and safely separated bicycle infrastructure, isn't it? Sorry, just
kidding. You haven't seen anything yet. But thats for another time, too.


*) <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12.jpeg>
Sparta Cornwall,
Recorded (or perhaps downloaded from an Apple QuickTake camera,
don't remember) on 9/22/1995.

The English language wikipedia page strangely only talkes
about motorcycles,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_B.V.>

but the German language page has a better picture on the left side

<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_(Zweiradfabrik)>



**) <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>

Peugeot PR60/L Randonneur


***)<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/bilder/Alltagsraeder/images/dsc00001.jpg>

Panasonic PR3000

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

[John B.]

Don't you have public transportation systems? When I lived in Bangkok,
for example, using the public transportation system - underground
"subway", Over head "Skytrain" and buses was far faster then any other
means, including bicycles.

And Singapore was much the same although there people do ride a bike
from the housing area to the nearest
Underground" station, usually less then a kilometer - see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAA20_ORvWE
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:47:16 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:18:13 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>:
>>
>>> https://www.cycling-insights.com/slider/the-true-environmental-impact-of-e-bikes/
>>
>> That's an advertisement for an e-bike conversion kit, utilizing a 250 W
>> front hub geared motor (eeek!), controller, display, and one of two
>> battery sizes (90 Wh and 180Wh) in the form of a powerbank. 2.6 kg for
>> the big version. Legal for 32 km/h at max in UK, 25 km/h in most of
>> Europe.
>>
>Uk it’s 15.5 Mph or 25 Kph beyond that it’s an illegal motorcycle unless
>you want to get it approved and insured taxed and so on…

Well, <https://www.swytchbike.com/about-us/> is an UK Ltd located in
London, "© 2023 Swytch Technology Ltd, Unit 9, 455 Wick Lane, London, E3
2TB". The bike conversion kit promoted and referenced in the article
from Cycling Insights is this one
<https://www.swytchbike.com/universal-ebike-conversion-kit/>. There I
read

| 32kph/20mph
| Restricted to 25kph/15.5mph in some regions

Who wouldn't understand that as

"it's 32 kph/20mph in our jurisdiction, but restricted to 25 km/15.5 mph
in some regions elsewhere"?

Are they lying or are they intentionally misleading readers?

But anyway, I only mentioned that to preempt the objection "But what
cyclist manages to go 32 km/h continuously??". A motorized bicycle
providing 250 W continously or twice or trice as much, but restricted to
25 km/h destroys any remaining incentive to use ones own power to ride
fast or far.

>
>Which is about right for E bikes main purpose ie either EMTB or commuting.

I' not debating their purpose here, because that's entireley subjective.

But of course. These vehicles aren't bicycles, just right for everybody
who doesn't intend to use a bicycle, but a motorcycle, for whatever
purpose, but with the aim of making as little effort as possible.

These are motorized bicycles, just like the Vélosolex
<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9losolex>. I had used one very
similar to the one shown in the upper right, in the past.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/basteleien/oldies/mz-ets-250/mz-apr76-16-jpeg>

The photo from 1976 shows my completely dismantled MZ ETS-250 and in the
background my girlfriend's VeloSolex, which I rode for a while after
repairing it. There is no comparison with today's e-bikes; compared to
them, those are racing motorcycles.

[AMuzi]

Nice Panasonic. That series was popular here as well. This
is one of my staff:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/mrp.html

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:51:40 +0700 schrieb John B.
<sloc...@gmail.com>:

Of course we have. But not one going from every point A to every point
B without walking, changing busses, streetcars or trains. See below.

>When I lived in Bangkok,
>for example, using the public transportation system - underground
>"subway", Over head "Skytrain" and buses was far faster then any other
>means, including bicycles.

Problem is, people don't use public transport even if it would get them
from A to B in one step and fast, if they have parking space at both
ends, connected by a moderately congested road.

To repeat what I already wrote, my commute was 12 km at rush hour

through a crowded city and then up in a hilly terrain to another

municipality. Did I mention that I had to cross a river? Our subway
doesn't cross the Rhine river, timetables between different communities
are rarely well coordinated and final stops are poorly served.

Using public transport can hardly compete with a 35 minute bicycle
drive, when you have to walk fifteen minutes to the gare, wait ten
minutes for the streecar and wait another ten minutes to switch to a
bus, on the other side of the river. BTDT. A canceled bus or streetcar
sometimes meant it would take me two hours to complete the journey.

>
>And Singapore was much the same although there people do ride a bike
>from the housing area to the nearest
>Underground" station, usually less then a kilometer - see
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAA20_ORvWE

I could show similar pictures crowded with bicycles from around our
gare, but for what purpose? I _walked_ from home to the gare in less
time than I would have needed to get the bike out of the house, ride to
the gare, find a safe place for parking and then walk to the underground
tram station. And, believe me, riding a bicycle you'd park anywhere near
the gare is no joy, especially during autumn and winter.

I was able to park my winter bike in the basement of the building where
I worked and the racing bike in a gap between the windowsill and the
desk in my office, during summer.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/2010/IMG_0590.jpg>

Why should I have switched to public transit, as long as I had the
freedom to ride one of my bikes? In order to stay unfit or to become
unfit?

Some people I knew drove their car to the gym before or after work, to
stay fit. When you can't bike for some reason, ok. But spending another
hour or two to do cardio training, when you get the same effect in less
time, simply by just riding a bike, that's crazy, IMO. There may also be
other reasons.

[Roger Merriman]

Lot of such things are on the iffy legal side, some others for example as
sold as off road only and are clearly a electric motorcycle, switch less so
and noting the battery size it’s relatively low powered really.

> But anyway, I only mentioned that to preempt the objection "But what
> cyclist manages to go 32 km/h continuously??". A motorized bicycle
> providing 250 W continously or twice or trice as much, but restricted to
> 25 km/h destroys any remaining incentive to use ones own power to ride
> fast or far.
>
>

I guess depends on why you’re riding?

>>
>> Which is about right for E bikes main purpose ie either EMTB or commuting.
>
> I' not debating their purpose here, because that's entireley subjective.
>
> But of course. These vehicles aren't bicycles, just right for everybody
> who doesn't intend to use a bicycle, but a motorcycle, for whatever
> purpose, but with the aim of making as little effort as possible.
>

They feel very much like bikes to me, some friends have some EMTB
absolutely fine riding with them on my MTB or Gravel bike, admittedly I’m
fitter and more technical rider, so this means they are not working as hard
and can do similar distances as I.

> These are motorized bicycles, just like the Vélosolex
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9losolex>. I had used one very
> similar to the one shown in the upper right, in the past.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/basteleien/oldies/mz-ets-250/mz-apr76-16-jpeg>
>
> The photo from 1976 shows my completely dismantled MZ ETS-250 and in the
> background my girlfriend's VeloSolex, which I rode for a while after
> repairing it. There is no comparison with today's e-bikes; compared to
> them, those are racing motorcycles.
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Interesting geometry and properly maintained, as far as I can see. Is it
still in use? I bought mine new in a local shop in 1995 and used it
almost every working day during spring, summer and autumn, mostly for my
commute, til early 2010. After that, I used it for inhouse training and
as a bike for guests. I still retain it as a backup bike, all essential
parts are still functional, but it is worn in every aspect, cranks and
other blank aluminium parts corroded from rides on salted streets in
winter (few) and early spring (many) and rust on the frame from sweat
in summer.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/technik/komponenten/problemstellen/p1060179.jpeg>
(picture taken during a vacation, spring 2008)

That DX-4000 is ten years older, so I'm surprised it's still so shiny.
How comes? Better maintenance? Better weather? Less use? Inquiring minds
want to know. :-)

[Roger Merriman]

Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:58:58 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>
>> Can’t imagine many folks would be attempting 30+ mile commuting distances
>
> 30 miles or about 50 km is very rare even for commuting distances.

Yup mine is 11 miles, though folks who ride into the city can be over 20
miles though they also have much faster route, ie london embankment which
allows folks to hold higher speeds and so on.

For my commute bike which is an old MTB with BigApple tires that sort of
stuff is okay as it isn’t bothered by debris within reason. I’m assuming
Germany cyclelanes are legally mandatory? UK mandatory means cars aren’t
allowed to use it than bikes have to use it. Ie magic paint type stuff.

After all plenty of rubbish stuff about, on both my commute and if I head
in central while both have decent useful cycle infrastructure they also
have at least one cyclelane that ignore and everyone else as well not
useful and seems risky.

Such as <https://maps.app.goo.gl/1S1tSEqJL7NwPssZ6?g_st=ic> which is total
waste of time.

Compared to <https://maps.app.goo.gl/qjbGd4exALUS6AXn6?g_st=ic> which is no
slower than before and well useful.

>
> *) <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/bild12.jpeg>
> Sparta Cornwall,
> Recorded (or perhaps downloaded from an Apple QuickTake camera,
> don't remember) on 9/22/1995.
>
> The English language wikipedia page strangely only talkes
> about motorcycles,
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_B.V.>
>
> but the German language page has a better picture on the left side
>
> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_(Zweiradfabrik)>
>
>
>
> **) <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
>
> Peugeot PR60/L Randonneur
>
>
> ***)<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/bilder/Alltagsraeder/images/dsc00001.jpg>
>
> Panasonic PR3000
>

Roger Merriman

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/28/2023 5:30 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
> My hypothesis is that the one group using an e-bike will initially ride
> a little further and a little faster on average due to the motor
> assistance, but will then stagnate and in the long run will not suffer
> any less from the consequences of physical inactivity than someone who
> uses other motorized means of transport and does not compensate for this
> with sporting activities.

I've been wondering about the service life of the typical e-bike. ISTM
that there are plenty of ways one might become unusable within a very
few years. Manufacturers go out of business, proprietary components fail
and can't be replaced, glitches occur in software and/or operator
interface, and of course owners simply decide "This isn't really fun"
and let the devices die.

Does anyone know how long those things last?

(A far-away Electrical Engineer friend of mine bought an early e-bike
many years ago. He proceeded to hack it by adding battery power and
making other modifications, including increasing its speed. He
consistently rode it to work for a couple years, then for various
reasons slacked off. AFAIK it's now a garage ornament.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On 10/28/2023 10:20 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
> Using public transport can hardly compete with a 35 minute bicycle
> drive, when you have to walk fifteen minutes to the gare, wait ten
> minutes for the streecar and wait another ten minutes to switch to a
> bus, on the other side of the river. BTDT. A canceled bus or streetcar
> sometimes meant it would take me two hours to complete the journey.

There were times I explored the option of using the bus lines to get to
work in the city center. It always would have taken me far longer than
simply riding my bike the seven miles. For a long time, the city-center
buses didn't come out this far. (Politics, some said.) But even when
they did, the roundabout routes and multiple stops meant a long travel
time.

There is a freeway from the city center out to within half a mile of my
home; and our suburban village has lots of university students and
employees, enough that on university holidays that freeway is noticeably
empty. I always thought a "bus rapid transit" scheme could shuttle users
from a parking lot near here to the university. I think buses could then
justify a 15 minute run every half hour; and the parking lot could
generate business for local cafes, shops, etc.

But the traffic around here really isn't bad enough to cause a search
for solutions. And people like the independence of driving solo in their
own car.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:19:26 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman

<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:

[...]

>> But anyway, I only mentioned that to preempt the objection "But what
>> cyclist manages to go 32 km/h continuously??". A motorized bicycle
>> providing 250 W continously or twice or trice as much, but restricted to
>> 25 km/h destroys any remaining incentive to use ones own power to ride
>> fast or far.
>>
>>
>I guess depends on why you’re riding?

Sure. People show all kinds of strange behaviour, like for example
attending saussage eating competitions
<https://majorleagueeating.com/contests/927/> or paying a lot of money
for adding the weight of a motor and battery to a bicycle and then not
using any of that power. But most people don't do that or don't do it
that way.

>>>
>>> Which is about right for E bikes main purpose ie either EMTB or commuting.
>>
>> I' not debating their purpose here, because that's entireley subjective.
>>
>> But of course. These vehicles aren't bicycles, just right for everybody
>> who doesn't intend to use a bicycle, but a motorcycle, for whatever
>> purpose, but with the aim of making as little effort as possible.
>>
>They feel very much like bikes to me,

Sure. That's intended and part of the design. It's quite difficult to
even roughly estimate how much power and energy you expend while
cycling, when you base your estimation on feelings, without actually
measuring it. I have been cycling a large part of my adult life, I've
even analyzed and reimplemented a power estimation software (bikepower
by Ken Roberts) in a different language, twenty years ago. But compared
to what my Garmin 1030 shows on the display, I'm still often so wrong
that it's more than just the difference between "not trying enough" and
"riding too hard." From this point it is not far to realize that with a
well-regulated engine it is very easy to create the illusion of
performance. A marketers dream!

> some friends have some EMTB
>absolutely fine riding with them on my MTB or Gravel bike, admittedly I’m
>fitter and more technical rider, so this means they are not working as hard
>and can do similar distances as I.

Exactly. That's because they ride a motorcycle with an integrated
bicycle simulator, so to speak, not a bicycle. Simulating a terrain only
a third as steep, air only a third as dense, but thickening rapidetly,
when approaching 25 km/h, hills suddenly becomimg steep again. Bicycle
and rider loosing most of their mass up to a speed of 6 km/h. Etc.

[Roger Merriman]

Well no I mean the E bikes are still bike type weights, ie 20kg or so yes
heavier than a MTB but not motorbike weights which is at least another 0 on
that, and peak power is still sub 1k.

In essence EMTB still ride like bikes not motorcycles, raises folks fitness
level and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just
doable, I can still clear stuff they can’t and so on.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:32:58 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
...

>>

>> Another example from my 2x12 km commute
>> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-3548.jpeg>
>> Nice and safely separated bicycle infrastructure, isn't it? Sorry, just
>> kidding. You haven't seen anything yet. But thats for another time, too.
>>
>For my commute bike which is an old MTB with BigApple tires that sort of
>stuff is okay as it isn’t bothered by debris within reason.

You haven't noticed that this part of my former commute has a gradient
of six to eight percent, most probably because I didn't tell you. So
let me add that this very short piece of "bicycle infrastructure" was
the most dangerous part of my commute by a large margin.

A colleague became seriously disabled on this cycle path and never
recovered. Another was found unconscious on this bike path; he had
fallen while riding over an insufficiently lowered edge, his face was
completely mangled. Others had less serious accidents, but these were
nonetheless unnecessary, unpleasant and painful. I once almost drove
into a wire that was stretched across the path. It was intended as a
tension wire for greenery that was supposed to make the cycle path "even
safer", but actually created dangerous shadows, which meant that you
often couldn't see oncoming traffic. Especially so, because oncoming
drivers on the road didn't dimm their headlight, because couldn't see
the bicycle light hidden by that greenery. Shortly after that experience
I used that "infrastructure" for the last time, using the road,
afterwards, never looking back. Figuratively, of course. If you ride
down a gradient of 5-7% on good asphalt, you can reach 50-60 km/h just
by rolling on a racing bike with suitable tires.

But perhaps you would have prefered to ride here

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20081124/P1080297.jpg>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20081124/P1080296.jpg>

instead on the reasonably clean road, I presume. Just for the kick or
for sports. :-)

I've overtaking people riding on that "infrastructure" who weren't
riding much slower than me. Me riding >50 km/h on the road. That
"infrastructure" being a path legally shared with unlit pedestrians and
unlit horses, in both directions.

>I’m assuming
>Germany cyclelanes are legally mandatory?

Correct, if they have the respective blue sign. Most have, including
this one.

>UK mandatory means cars aren’t
>allowed to use it than bikes have to use it.

In essence, yes, same here. In practice that means: these are "multi
purpose areas", whether the blue sign says so or does not. Pedestrians
just use these, People on horses do it, even drivers of cars are happy
to use these for short - or longer - halts.

The benefit that they have as a parking space for construction
equipment, building materials, garbage cans, unpackaged waste or waste
packed in plastic bags, and for e-scooters should not be underestimated.
Actually, everything that is not tolerated on the road belongs there
because this is where serious and important traffic happens, on the
road! The local city even tolerates or even approves seatings from
street cafes on mandatory cycle paths.

>Ie magic paint type stuff.

It is much worse.

>
>After all plenty of rubbish stuff about, on both my commute and if I head
>in central while both have decent useful cycle infrastructure they also
>have at least one cyclelane that ignore and everyone else as well not
>useful and seems risky.
>
>Such as <https://maps.app.goo.gl/1S1tSEqJL7NwPssZ6?g_st=ic> which is total
>waste of time.

It's much worse, even if it's not mandatory. It's a waste of money and a
danger and a nuisance to cyclists. Furthermore, its what you get in
spades when asking for something “useful”.

>Compared to <https://maps.app.goo.gl/qjbGd4exALUS6AXn6?g_st=ic> which is no
>slower than before and well useful.

Hm. I find this very confusing. Is this working as intended?

<https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5109323,-0.0928413,3a,29.3y,269.33h,85.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBh_KWoKR2vht58ZXctCzRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>
<https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5108932,-0.09326,3a,16.6y,98.87h,87.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbDk0iRa14E_fUUBBdRvNiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>

[Roger Merriman]

Seems spectacularly muddy I do occasionally ride though mud though this is
within woods which is more expected than cycle infrastructure which
generally I’d expect to be surfaces and at bare minimum at least not do
harm! If not I bypass etc.

The old MTB is due to volume of tires less bothered by surfaces though as
it’s not treaded tires mud isn’t something it does well anymore!

It’s very old unloved and unused I *think* I saw someone use it few years
back? Which is unusual enough to be remembered!

>
>> Compared to <https://maps.app.goo.gl/qjbGd4exALUS6AXn6?g_st=ic> which is no
>> slower than before and well useful.
>
>
> Hm. I find this very confusing. Is this working as intended?

Yes, it’s a segregated and light controlled cycleway, do get places such as
linked where bikes will cross via filters ie Bollards and similar though
the vast majority of cyclists will be following the river as that’s the
direction of travel, as you where.
>
> <https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5109323,-0.0928413,3a,29.3y,269.33h,85.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBh_KWoKR2vht58ZXctCzRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>
> <https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5108932,-0.09326,3a,16.6y,98.87h,87.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbDk0iRa14E_fUUBBdRvNiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Rolf Mantel]

Am 28.10.2023 um 18:32 schrieb Roger Merriman:
> Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:58:58 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Can’t imagine many folks would be attempting 30+ mile commuting distances
>>
>> 30 miles or about 50 km is very rare even for commuting distances.
>
> Yup mine is 11 miles, though folks who ride into the city can be over 20
> miles though they also have much faster route, ie london embankment which
> allows folks to hold higher speeds and so on.

Actually, the behavioural constant is 'expected commuting time' rather
than 'commuting distance', with acceptable commuting distances depending
on the existing transport infrastructure and congestion.

It is well known that London is an extreme outlyer concerning acceptable
commuting distances. In most of the world, people look for the best
flat with a 30-minute commute to work and accept a 60-minute commute if
they can' find anything better; in London people look for the best flat
with a 60-minute commute and accept a 120-minute commute to work (e.g.
live in Doncaster and travel to work by fast train).

>> About 92 % of all commuters have a commuting distance of less than 50
>> km, here in Germany. About half of them (48 %) have to travel a distance
>> of less than 10 km from home to work.

I travel 12km to work and chose my house for easy commute by public
transport.
This takes 30 minutes on the bicycle.
With public transport it's 2 minutes walk to the metro station, 10
minutes by train and then a 2km bus connection; it typically takes 30
minutes (but a lot longer if the connection breaks); by subsituting the
bus with a bike trip I can get down to 25 minutes and increase reliability.
In the car it take 20 minutes plus a random delay due to congestion.

Rolf

[Rolf Mantel]

The latter: it is 20 mph in the USA and 25 km/h in most of Europe
including UK.
But when the web page assumes that everybody knows the legal situation
in their country, is it misleading to advertise "We could go faster but
we're not allowed to in your country"?

[Roger Merriman]

Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 28.10.2023 um 18:32 schrieb Roger Merriman:
>> Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>>> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 15:58:58 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>>>
>>>> Can’t imagine many folks would be attempting 30+ mile commuting distances
>>>
>>> 30 miles or about 50 km is very rare even for commuting distances.
>>
>> Yup mine is 11 miles, though folks who ride into the city can be over 20
>> miles though they also have much faster route, ie london embankment which
>> allows folks to hold higher speeds and so on.
>
> Actually, the behavioural constant is 'expected commuting time' rather
> than 'commuting distance', with acceptable commuting distances depending
> on the existing transport infrastructure and congestion.
>
> It is well known that London is an extreme outlyer concerning acceptable
> commuting distances. In most of the world, people look for the best
> flat with a 30-minute commute to work and accept a 60-minute commute if
> they can' find anything better; in London people look for the best flat
> with a 60-minute commute and accept a 120-minute commute to work (e.g.
> live in Doncaster and travel to work by fast train).
>

Was in reference to Tom 30 miles to commute which would be an outlier
anywhere you lived.

And yes London size means folks will live out and commute in, be that
public transport or how ever, some still use the car which must be a truly
painful experience! I’ve driven off peak though London number times over
the years, and that’s bad enough!

>>> About 92 % of all commuters have a commuting distance of less than 50
>>> km, here in Germany. About half of them (48 %) have to travel a distance
>>> of less than 10 km from home to work.
>
> I travel 12km to work and chose my house for easy commute by public
> transport.
> This takes 30 minutes on the bicycle.
> With public transport it's 2 minutes walk to the metro station, 10
> minutes by train and then a 2km bus connection; it typically takes 30
> minutes (but a lot longer if the connection breaks); by subsituting the
> bus with a bike trip I can get down to 25 minutes and increase reliability.
> In the car it take 20 minutes plus a random delay due to congestion.
>
> Rolf
>

Roger Merriman

[Tom Kunich]

I was seeing my neurologist on a biweekly appointment schedule. Before Governor Gavin Loathsome decided that he had to destroy Silicon Valley with unfair business regulations and taxation, the traffic was so heavy that I could ride to the appointment 25 miles away faster than by car. It is different now that he has destroyed Silicon Valley making it more a Silicon Wasteland.

[Tom Kunich]

I don't remember saying anything about a 30 mile commute though it would have been when I worked in Silicon Valley before retirement. My commute to NASA was something like 100 miles but I worked in our shop in San Mateo or some such and commuted only to make the presentations etc.

You must be thinking of Joerg who said that he commuted on GRAVEL for most of 30 miles.

[Roger Merriman]

Correction was time not distance “3 hours on an E-bike in the rain will
convince anyone” at the bare minimum that’s 30 miles at 10mph if they have
more open commute be getting on for double that, either way it’s
improbable.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 18:33:02 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman

<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 16:19:26 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>>

[...]

>>> They feel very much like bikes to me,
>>
>> Sure. That's intended and part of the design. It's quite difficult to
>> even roughly estimate how much power and energy you expend while
>> cycling, when you base your estimation on feelings, without actually
>> measuring it. I have been cycling a large part of my adult life, I've
>> even analyzed and reimplemented a power estimation software (bikepower
>> by Ken Roberts) in a different language, twenty years ago. But compared
>> to what my Garmin 1030 shows on the display, I'm still often so wrong
>> that it's more than just the difference between "not trying enough" and
>> "riding too hard." From this point it is not far to realize that with a
>> well-regulated engine it is very easy to create the illusion of
>> performance. A marketers dream!
>>
>>
>>> some friends have some EMTB
>>> absolutely fine riding with them on my MTB or Gravel bike, admittedly I’m
>>> fitter and more technical rider, so this means they are not working as hard
>>> and can do similar distances as I.
>>
>> Exactly. That's because they ride a motorcycle with an integrated
>> bicycle simulator, so to speak, not a bicycle. Simulating a terrain only
>> a third as steep, air only a third as dense, but thickening rapidetly,
>> when approaching 25 km/h, hills suddenly becomimg steep again. Bicycle
>> and rider loosing most of their mass up to a speed of 6 km/h. Etc.
>>
>>
>Well no I mean the E bikes are still bike type weights, ie 20kg or so yes
>heavier than a MTB but not motorbike weights which is at least another 0 on
>that, and peak power is still sub 1k.

You certainly are kidding. For about a century and a half, a bicycle in
common parlance is a vehicle with at least two wheels, driven by a pedal
drive operated by a human being. Adding "or motor powered assisted" to
the definition is a very recent, somewhat orwellian newspeak driven by
marketing from companies selling electical motors and all kind of
automotive stuffe, like Bosch, for example. When the first motorized
cycles came around, we called these "motorcycles", or sometimes "motor
bicycles", or "Motorfahrrad" in Germany, abbreviated as "Mofa". No one
called the Velosolex <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9loSoleX>
bicycle. The french wikipedia calles it "Cyclomoteur", what it indeed
is.

One can argue about the degree of "motor support" at which a turning
point is reached. How much "power assist" would make, ceteris paribus,
a bicycle competition unfair?

How much power assist, measured in W and in Wh would you allow all
competing entrants in a contest to not see it as a handicap or as an
unfair advantage? You most probably can guess my answer: None. But what
about you? You perhaps might accept the claim "I'm stronger that you"
from somebody climbing Mont Ventoux faster than you and reaching the top
first, after adding just the tiny amount of 20 W of driving power
through a motor. Would you?

You casually dismiss "peak power ... still sub 1k" as irrelevant. How
long can you sustain 1kW, you say?

>
>In essence EMTB still ride like bikes not motorcycles,

Most smaller off-road motorcycles basically ride like MTB. I'm not
talking about off-road sports, but rather the use of bikes as a means of
transportation, whether on the way to work, for business, or for
leisure. There, even a small amount (much less that what's nowerdays
state of the "art" wrt e-bikes) makes a difference like between day and
night.


>raises folks fitness
>level

Au contraire, switching from bicycles to e-bikes lowers people's
fitness. Just as it takes time to get fit through intensive daily
cycling, sometimes years, it doesn't happen overnight that you become
unfit if you let the motor do most of the work. It happens so
insidiously that people don't notice it until it's too late.

>and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just
>doable, I can still clear stuff they can’t and so on.

They most probably wouldn't, when using offroad motorcycles or their
car, either. This proves nothing.

<https://dirtbikemagazine.com/10-best-motocross-bikes-ever/>

[Roger Merriman]

No idea I’m aware that fit folks can hit over 1k in a sprint some 2k but
these are still human sized levels of power, note that’s peak the e bike
will not produce that nominally where again it’s more human level of power
very good human level admittedly but even so.

>
>
>>
>> In essence EMTB still ride like bikes not motorcycles,
>
> Most smaller off-road motorcycles basically ride like MTB. I'm not
> talking about off-road sports, but rather the use of bikes as a means of
> transportation, whether on the way to work, for business, or for
> leisure. There, even a small amount (much less that what's nowerdays
> state of the "art" wrt e-bikes) makes a difference like between day and
> night.
>

They really don’t even a EMTb extra 10kg or less is noticeable, small
motorbikes even mopeds are a lot more and this radically changes how they
ride and also where.

>
>> raises folks fitness
>> level
>
> Au contraire, switching from bicycles to e-bikes lowers people's
> fitness. Just as it takes time to get fit through intensive daily
> cycling, sometimes years, it doesn't happen overnight that you become
> unfit if you let the motor do most of the work. It happens so
> insidiously that people don't notice it until it's too late.
>

That isn’t what I meant ie means for example that folks can ride a 20 mile
MTB ride without being done for days at all, though some folks apparently
do use them for training as it’s lower intensity and all that.

>
>> and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just
>> doable, I can still clear stuff they can’t and so on.
>
> They most probably wouldn't, when using offroad motorcycles or their
> car, either. This proves nothing.
>
> <https://dirtbikemagazine.com/10-best-motocross-bikes-ever/>
>
>

Well it’s shows that the bikes broadly have similar capabilities, ie riding
with mates on E-bikes is not like riding with motorbikes really isn’t.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Wed, 01 Nov 2023 13:01:25 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman

You didn't answer this question, which leads me to believe you wouldn't.
You probably would consider a mere 20 Watts provided by a motor to be an
unfair advantage, and rightly so.

>>
>> You casually dismiss "peak power ... still sub 1k" as irrelevant. How
>> long can you sustain 1kW, you say?
>
>No idea I’m aware that fit folks can hit over 1k in a sprint

Even I old geezer was able to do over 1 k on the bike a while ago - for
about one second.

Perhaps you believe humans to have a power curve almost as flat as an
internal combustion engine, or as flat as an electric motor. A older VW
Id.3 has a continuous power of 70 kW and a peak power of 110 kW. That's
less than 60% more peak power than continuous power output.

Source: <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_ID.3>.

Cyclists using a power meter on their bicycles have known for years that
a power curve like that would be pure fiction. Garmin and others sell
many gadgets able to collect power while riding and offer software for
analyzing the collected data. I'm using an Garmin Edge 1030 combined
with a pair of Garmin XC200 on my most recent road bike, my wife has got
a Garmin watch and a SRAM powermeter crank on her new bike.
<https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/pm-riv-1w-d1>


While the mechanics of how muscles work has been extensively studied by
sport scientists in the past, it seems to me that these widely available
tools have only recently found their way into the scientific literature.
Anyway, I just found this:

<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-021-04833-y/figures/2>

"An illustration of the spectrum of physiological responses across the
power-duration relationship using arbitrary power output values"

from <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-021-04833-y>

Unfortunately, that illustration doesn't tell from what data that
concrete curve actually has been derived. But the shape of this curve
fits very well with the individual curves that I can look at for my
individual rides or as an average over many rides.

>some 2k but
>these are still human sized levels of power, note that’s peak the e bike
>will not produce that nominally where again it’s more human level of power
>very good human level admittedly but even so.

Or so you believe if you haven't ever seen a human power curve.

But to equate the short-term performance of a competitive athlete over a
few seconds with the performance that an ordinary cyclist can achieve
over the long term is bordering on fraud, if you know better.

But that's exactly what is done when selling e-bikes as some kind of
bicycle to the audience.

An e-bike that is legally classified as a bicycle in Germany and other
European countries is limited to 25 km/h and is allowed to add an
average power of 250 W in a sliding time window of 30 minutes. This
means that any amount of power may be added within these thirty minutes
as long as this average value is not exceeded and the engine does not
overheat during a test. Bosch aggressively advertises "up to 600W" and
340% for some motors, but could equally sell "up to 1 kW and 400%", or
even more, without breaking the law. Given that people rarely need that
much power for more than half an hour when restricted to 25 km/h, this
essentially boils down to "no real restriction whatsoever".


Have a look at
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/power/powercurve.jpg>
That's a snapshot of a graph power vs time about how long I was able to
hold a certain amount of power, over a logarithmic scale for time,
starting with one second on the left and five hours on the right. It is
quite similar to the curve shown in the article linked above.

As you will notice, I was able to output between 0.750 kW and 1 kW at
max, for one second, but less than 100 W over five hours. That's an
order of magnitude less, factor 10, not a factor of 1.6.

Let's calculate. When I generously take 1.6 times my 100 W continuous
power from my best >5h ride, I'm at 160 W. That I can hold for about two
minutes, according to the graph.

2 minutes vs two hours, that's a factor of 150.

But wait, there is more.

On my last >5h ride I was able to generate an average of 72 watts and
only did an average of 17 km/h, in hilly terrain, average grade 1%.

Adding 340% motor power is both within what German law allows and what a
Pedelec motor from Bosch actually delivers

<https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/products/performance-line-cx/>

So adding 250 W on average to my lowly 72 W for as long as I like is
both legal and practical.

What could I do with that 322 W combined? Assuming a road bike or an
E-MTB with smooth tires, I'd easily do that trip with an average speed
of 33-36 km/h, mostly depending on actual aerodynamics. Most probably I
wouldn't, for obvious reasons: there is no motor power at >25 km/h.

Or would I? Actually we've calculated with averages. In actual fact, I
can do much more than 72 W, see the power curve above, but only for
short times. I'm riding in hilly terrain, sometimes going up and down
with a grade of 3, 6, 10 or sometimes even 12 percent. I could do up to
4 % uphill with slightly less than 25 km/h, continuously, without
spending more than 72 W of my own power, or do 10 % with about 15 km/h.

And then, crouching behind the handlebars, rolling down those four
percent gradients at 44 km/h without pedaling at all - reducing my self
generated average power to even less than 72 Watt.

Seriously: if you know how difficult it is to increase your average
performance by even a few percent, or at least to maintain it at this
level as you get older, then that gross statement regarding "human
level" comes is pretty crazy.

>>
>>
>>>
>>> In essence EMTB still ride like bikes not motorcycles,
>>
>> Most smaller off-road motorcycles basically ride like MTB. I'm not
>> talking about off-road sports, but rather the use of bikes as a means of
>> transportation, whether on the way to work, for business, or for
>> leisure. There, even a small amount (much less that what's nowerdays
>> state of the "art" wrt e-bikes) makes a difference like between day and
>> night.
>>
>They really don’t even a EMTb extra 10kg or less is noticeable, small
>motorbikes even mopeds are a lot more and this radically changes how they
>ride and also where.

I spent half a day riding an lented older E-MTB up and down a nearby
hill (8 % up to 11 %) in France, this spring, after mounting my own
power meter pedals. Modern E-Bike motors offer even more power, so I
assume my conclusion applies even more to these.

|Extended Boost is a new and innovative function in eMTB
|mode. The unique dynamism means that obstacles can be
|overcome with ease by applying the right amount of pressure
|to the pedal. The pedals rarely, if ever, jam. If the front
|wheel is already on the step, a slight pedal pressure is all
|it takes to give the decisive "kick". This takes pedal
|management to a whole new level.

Quoted from the Bosch article.

None of my bicycles can do anything remotely similar to that.

Even that according to current standard somewhat inferior E-Bike (no
Extended Boost, for example) radically changes how one rides and where.
This cuts both ways, by the way: It makes riding up an 11% grade easier
as riding up a hill less than half as steep and it needs completely
different motorics. You learn how to operate a motor much stronger and
having more endurance than yourself using your feed as a kind of
accelerator pedal, but you unlearn how to do it with your own power. The
starting aid makes it unnecessary to learn how to start on hills. You
learn to actually use excess engine power by riding steeper sections
faster rather than developing an efficient riding style. You learn to
simply ride straight through potholes even uphill, with thick tires and
suspension instead of cleverly avoiding them to save energy. Etc.

>>
>>> raises folks fitness
>>> level
>>
>> Au contraire, switching from bicycles to e-bikes lowers people's
>> fitness. Just as it takes time to get fit through intensive daily
>> cycling, sometimes years, it doesn't happen overnight that you become
>> unfit if you let the motor do most of the work. It happens so
>> insidiously that people don't notice it until it's too late.
>>
>That isn’t what I meant ie means for example that folks can ride a 20 mile
>MTB ride without being done for days at all, though some folks apparently
>do use them for training as it’s lower intensity and all that.

This is neither quantified, measured nor likely. It's simply a beautiful
narrative that accompanies self-deception.

>>
>>> and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just
>>> doable, I can still clear stuff they can’t and so on.
>>
>> They most probably wouldn't, when using offroad motorcycles or their
>> car, either. This proves nothing.
>>
>> <https://dirtbikemagazine.com/10-best-motocross-bikes-ever/>
>>
>>
>Well it’s shows that the bikes broadly have similar capabilities, ie riding
>with mates on E-bikes is not like riding with motorbikes really isn’t.

Who cares? That's a red herring. Motorcycles have capabilities,
e-bikes have capabilities, but bikes don't have capabilities. People
have or develop capabilities - or don't.

I've never seen a bicyle advertised with

Max. support level** (%) 340 %
Maximum possible drive torque (Nm) 85 Nm
Max. support up to 25 km/h
Smart Walk Assist with Hill Hold yes
Rated continuous output 250 W
Maximum power 600 W
Max. power at a cadence of 70 rpm 600 W
Max. Power-to-weight ratio 207 W/kg

[Roger Merriman]

Not really MTB tends to high torque levels so if folks don’t have the
fitness or similar want to do such riding back to back or similar. I do but
then I I get opportunities to ride more than just the weekend and so on.

>
>>>
>>>> and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just
>>>> doable, I can still clear stuff they can’t and so on.
>>>
>>> They most probably wouldn't, when using offroad motorcycles or their
>>> car, either. This proves nothing.
>>>
>>> <https://dirtbikemagazine.com/10-best-motocross-bikes-ever/>
>>>
>>>
>> Well it’s shows that the bikes broadly have similar capabilities, ie riding
>> with mates on E-bikes is not like riding with motorbikes really isn’t.
>
> Who cares? That's a red herring. Motorcycles have capabilities,
> e-bikes have capabilities, but bikes don't have capabilities. People
> have or develop capabilities - or don't.
>
> I've never seen a bicyle advertised with
>
> Max. support level** (%) 340 %
> Maximum possible drive torque (Nm) 85 Nm
> Max. support up to 25 km/h
> Smart Walk Assist with Hill Hold yes
> Rated continuous output 250 W
> Maximum power 600 W
> Max. power at a cadence of 70 rpm 600 W
> Max. Power-to-weight ratio 207 W/kg
>
>
>

That still doesn’t make them motorbikes I’ve ridden such off road and a bit
on road and it’s a very different experience.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sun, 05 Nov 2023 16:36:09 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>That still doesn’t make them motorbikes I’ve ridden such off road and a bit
>on road and it’s a very different experience.

Not worth commenting on the content, too little substance. But thanks
for playing.

[Tom Kunich]

I can say without reserve that none of the E-bikes around here appear to be limited to just 250 watts. One of the fat tired ebikes just yesterday as I was driving to dinner pulled away from a stop light very fast and he wasn't pedaling at all.

[Roger Merriman]

Some are hacked and some are sold as “off road only” ie sold knowing folks
are going to use them on road generally moped powered and weights.

I believe America has a 20mph limit so more useful for road bikes or folks
mixing with faster traffic though personally I feel even so the Europe 15
mph limit is a better fit.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 05 Nov 2023 16:36:09 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
wrote:

It depends on how you define a E-Bike.
See
https://www.makeuseof.com/fastest-ebikes-for-sale/
The Revolution XX is the world's fastest e-bike, with a top speed of
74 miles per hour (tested on a dry lake bed), thanks to an output of
10,000 watts, or 13.4 horsepower.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Roger Merriman]

I’d not call those MTB’s but moped if not motorbikes and frankly are sold
to be deregulated and used on the streets, hence no bike manufacturers even
EMTB only ones as they don’t want the legal heat.

Personally at that point why not buy an electric motorcycle are a few out
there and would seem cheaper/better off road motorbikes.

Roger Merriman

[John B.]

On Sun, 05 Nov 2023 22:26:54 GMT, Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>

>>>>>>>>> absolutely fine riding with them on my MTB or Gravel bike, admittedly I?m

>>>>> No idea I?m aware that fit folks can hit over 1k in a sprint

>>>>> these are still human sized levels of power, note that?s peak the e bike
>>>>> will not produce that nominally where again it?s more human level of power

>>>>> They really don?t even a EMTb extra 10kg or less is noticeable, small

>>>>> That isn?t what I meant ie means for example that folks can ride a 20 mile

>>>>> MTB ride without being done for days at all, though some folks apparently

>>>>> do use them for training as it?s lower intensity and all that.

>>>>
>>>> This is neither quantified, measured nor likely. It's simply a beautiful
>>>> narrative that accompanies self-deception.
>>>

>>> Not really MTB tends to high torque levels so if folks don?t have the

>>> fitness or similar want to do such riding back to back or similar. I do but
>>> then I I get opportunities to ride more than just the weekend and so on.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and makes very steep technical climbs easier though by no means just

>>>>>>> doable, I can still clear stuff they can?t and so on.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> They most probably wouldn't, when using offroad motorcycles or their
>>>>>> car, either. This proves nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://dirtbikemagazine.com/10-best-motocross-bikes-ever/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

>>>>> Well it?s shows that the bikes broadly have similar capabilities, ie riding
>>>>> with mates on E-bikes is not like riding with motorbikes really isn?t.

>>>>
>>>> Who cares? That's a red herring. Motorcycles have capabilities,
>>>> e-bikes have capabilities, but bikes don't have capabilities. People
>>>> have or develop capabilities - or don't.
>>>>
>>>> I've never seen a bicyle advertised with
>>>>
>>>> Max. support level** (%) 340 %
>>>> Maximum possible drive torque (Nm) 85 Nm
>>>> Max. support up to 25 km/h
>>>> Smart Walk Assist with Hill Hold yes
>>>> Rated continuous output 250 W
>>>> Maximum power 600 W
>>>> Max. power at a cadence of 70 rpm 600 W
>>>> Max. Power-to-weight ratio 207 W/kg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

>>> That still doesn?t make them motorbikes I?ve ridden such off road and a bit
>>> on road and it?s a very different experience.

>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> It depends on how you define a E-Bike.
>> See
>> https://www.makeuseof.com/fastest-ebikes-for-sale/
>> The Revolution XX is the world's fastest e-bike, with a top speed of
>> 74 miles per hour (tested on a dry lake bed), thanks to an output of
>> 10,000 watts, or 13.4 horsepower.
>>
>
>I’d not call those MTB’s but moped if not motorbikes and frankly are sold
>to be deregulated and used on the streets, hence no bike manufacturers even
>EMTB only ones as they don’t want the legal heat.
>
>Personally at that point why not buy an electric motorcycle are a few out
>there and would seem cheaper/better off road motorbikes.
>
>Roger Merriman

As I said, it does depend on how you define an "E-Bike".

The reference I provided certainly define the bikes listed as
"E-Bikes" And the maker of the Revolution XX calls it an E-Bike and
even has a video showing a guy pedaling it at speed.

"the operator can physically pedal along at that speed due to a
Schlumpf High Speed Drive custom made with a 38T/95T equivalent
planetary geared chainring. We recently took this beast of a bike to
El Mirage Dry Lake Bed to confirm its blistering performance. Our test
rider was able to achieve an unbelievable 74 MPH on radar (73.7 MPH
GPS) on a perfectly flat, dry lake surface."
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:53:49 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 12:06:03?PM UTC-8, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>> Am Sun, 05 Nov 2023 16:36:09 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>>> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>>>> That still doesn’t make them motorbikes I’ve ridden such off road and a bit
>>>> on road and it’s a very different experience.
>>> Not worth commenting on the content, too little substance. But thanks
>>> for playing.
>>> --
>>> Thank you for observing all safety precautions

You're welcome.

>> I can say without reserve that none of the E-bikes around here appear to
>> be limited to just 250 watts.

You won't find many E-bikes in most European countries that aren't
limited to 25 km/h at max, when powered by their motor and to a so
called "Nenndauerleistung", which is somewhat sloppily defined by
REGULATION (EU) No 168/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT

<https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013R0168>
<https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013R0168>

In essence this means that a motorcycle having pedals allowing the
person to support the motor by pedaling is legally treated the same as a
real bicycle under some conditions, for example

- Using motor power is limited to 25 km/h at max

There acutally is _no_ relevant regulation for

"pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with
an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous
rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the
output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops
pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and
finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;"

and maximum continuous rated power defined like that

"‘maximum continuous rated power’ means the maximum
thirty minutes power at the output shaft of an electric
engine as set out in UNECE regulation No 8"

What gives? The power of an mostly unregulated E-Bike - called "Pedelec"
in Germany - is both limited and not limited.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits the installation and use of,
for example, a 2 kW motor as long as the motor electronics measure the
average power in a sliding 30-minute window and make it impossible to
use more than 250 W times 0.5 hours == 125 Wh in this window.

I've read that some European Countries limit it further, for example
Austria was mentioned with a limit of 600W, supported by the fact that
Bosch advertises some of their motors with "up to 600 Watt". AFAIK,
there is no such restriction in Germany.

>> One of the fat tired ebikes just yesterday
>> as I was driving to dinner pulled away from a stop light very fast and he
>> wasn't pedaling at all.
>>
>Some are hacked and some are sold as “off road only” ie sold knowing folks
>are going to use them on road generally moped powered and weights.
>
>I believe America has a 20mph limit so more useful for road bikes or folks
>mixing with faster traffic though personally I feel even so the Europe 15
>mph limit is a better fit.

I disagree either way. There are campaigns for banning even 45 km/h
vehicles (28mph for the metrically challenged) from ordinary roads,
because these "hold up traffic", so 25 km/h or 32 km/h wouldn't make
much of a difference.

But thats mostly discussing and valuing it from the the point of view
behind a windshield. Mine is the point of view from sitting on a road
bicycle. When analysing my rides over the years, there are rarely any
rides where I didn't ride with a spectrum from 5 km up to > 50 km/h. The
distribution of speed vs. distance varies, of course, depending for
example on weather and terrain conditions. But riding with a constant
speed near either limit most of the time is very rare.

From the point of view of actually using a bicycle I conclude that while
some e-bikes are legally handled as biycles, that doesent make them
become bicycles. They aren't, because they are still used like motorized
vehicles, using them near the legal limit, most of the time, for obvious
reasons.

I think this constant whitewashing of motorcycles staged as bicycles
harms those of us who still ride real bicycles. And it also harms those
who expect these pseudo-bikes to have the advantages of real bikes.

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Mon, 06 Nov 2023 05:07:49 +0700 schrieb John B.
<sloc...@gmail.com>:

No. It depends on how you define a bicycle. I'm using the traditional
version: usually two wheels, pedals, muscle powered.



--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

[Roger Merriman]

I’m sure they do but they are shady, they know full well these will be used
on road illegally.

>
They are clearly not E bikes be that technically or socially!

> "the operator can physically pedal along at that speed due to a
> Schlumpf High Speed Drive custom made with a 38T/95T equivalent
> planetary geared chainring. We recently took this beast of a bike to
> El Mirage Dry Lake Bed to confirm its blistering performance. Our test
> rider was able to achieve an unbelievable 74 MPH on radar (73.7 MPH
> GPS) on a perfectly flat, dry lake surface."

Roger Merriman

[Roger Merriman]

Surely that’s the same speed as mopeds? Certainly in uk mopeds are limited
to 30mph, which insets the sort of thing I’d want to encounter on foot or
on most cycle infrastructure.

I’m not practically sure of the advantages of such a device over well a
moped really for infrastructure.

But we don’t have such stuff legally here, occasionally folks do dumb sh*t
in front of the police with such bikes, and get them impounded.

>
> But thats mostly discussing and valuing it from the the point of view
> behind a windshield. Mine is the point of view from sitting on a road
> bicycle. When analysing my rides over the years, there are rarely any
> rides where I didn't ride with a spectrum from 5 km up to > 50 km/h. The
> distribution of speed vs. distance varies, of course, depending for
> example on weather and terrain conditions. But riding with a constant
> speed near either limit most of the time is very rare.
>
> From the point of view of actually using a bicycle I conclude that while
> some e-bikes are legally handled as biycles, that doesent make them
> become bicycles. They aren't, because they are still used like motorized
> vehicles, using them near the legal limit, most of the time, for obvious
> reasons.
>
> I think this constant whitewashing of motorcycles staged as bicycles
> harms those of us who still ride real bicycles. And it also harms those
> who expect these pseudo-bikes to have the advantages of real bikes.
>
>

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Am Mon, 06 Nov 2023 22:25:00 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman

<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>> Am Sun, 05 Nov 2023 21:53:49 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
>> <ro...@sarlet.com>:
>>
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

These _are_ mopeds, limited to 40 km/h in Germany long ago, now 45 km/h,
or more recently, so called "S-Pedelec", E-Bikes limited to 45 km/h and
handled almost identical to mopeds by the law, needing helmets,
insurance, insurance plate, operating license, driver's license, age
restriction, prohibited from using so called "biycle infrastructure",
etc.

But as I said, there are campaigns to get these obstacles of "their
roads", too. "They" being people believing that roads are for cars and
everybody else belongs on footpaths or footpaths with a bicyle sign
plastered on.

>Certainly in uk mopeds are limited
>to 30mph, which insets the sort of thing I’d want to encounter on foot or
>on most cycle infrastructure.

It depends. Would you rather encounter something like that on your
precious "cycle infrastructure"?

<https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/lieferwagen-der-zukunft-xxl-lastenrad-faehrt-durch-coburg,TsRv0B6>

|The cargo bike has an electric drive (of course) and looks
|like a small truck or mini van. In addition to parcels, its
|loading area also has space for standardized Euro 3 pallets.
|The rider can load half a ton onto the Cargobike and move it
|without much effort thanks to the support of the battery.

and

|With a maximum width of one meter, it can be
|used wherever bicycles are permitted.

In actual fact, it _must_ be used on biycle paths, where these are
mandatory. Almost everywhere, that is.

>
>I’m not practically sure of the advantages of such a device over well a
>moped really for infrastructure.

That's completely missing the point. These vehicles are not faster as
some arbitrary biycling pro, but you are both allowed and forced to use
them on arbitrary roads, excluding highways (Autobahn et al), of course.
No "bicycle infrastructure" for these, so far.

>
>But we don’t have such stuff legally here, occasionally folks do dumb sh*t
>in front of the police with such bikes, and get them impounded.

I don't know. Perhaps, because UK isn't part of the EU, anymore. There
is a EU type approval defining a Type L1E-B, coloquially called
"S-Pedelec", which essentially is an E-moped with pedals. Technically,
like the former Mofa, most Pedelec differ from their S-Pedelec
counterpart only by motor support restricted to 25 km/h and average
continuous power to 500 W instead of 250 W.

When I was fifteen, I got a mofa, a Vespa Ciao, shown as the second
picture in the following web page.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pluspora/plainpostings/20210417t0724-was_sieht_eigentlich_eher_wie_ein_fahrrad_aus_das_hier.html

The first picture displays an velo solex, the last picture an E-Bike.

The Vespa Ciao came in two variants, as a moped and as a mofa. You
wouldn't notices the difference between these variants when not knowing
what to look for. Many E-Bikes come in two variants too, which are
equally indistigualbe.

The Vespa Ciao was available in two versions, as a 25 km/h mofa and as a
moped. If you don't know what to look out for, you won't notice the
difference between these variants. Many e-bikes are also available in
two versions, which are equally indistinguishable, because the _are_
mostly identical. Even the motors are more or less identical, Bosch
selling the a full range of motors. Many of them are throttled to 25
km/h and 250 W rated continuous power, some to 45 km/h and 500 W.

Some of these vehicles were made bicycles by law, but they weren't
bicycles to begin with, because even the first e-bikes had enough power
to replace an essential part of what makes a bicycle a bicycle: the
human propulsion.

Look at your own power curve, even just doubling your average power over
a time span most probably would make you a potential winner of a
national cycling race. +100%, doubling your own power, thats where
E-Bikes/Pedelec started, many years ago. Now Bosch motors are
advertised with 340% and 600 Watt _plus_ your own power. And that's
just some arbitrary limit from Bosch, they might offer 400% and 1000W
anytime. At the high end and not cheap, of course.

It is just crazy to call motorcycles powered like that bicycles.

[Roger Merriman]

Can’t see it making any turns to be honest or fitting though filters and
similar, at a smaller scale do have this with the wee car shaped mini
trucks which arguably should be on the road proper as well they barely fit.

A cargo bike with some kids or what ever is one thing, but they are taking
the urine as you where.

I’d personally call such mopeds and I believe uk law would treat them as
such.

Roger Merriman

[Wolfgang Strobl]

xAm Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:05:02 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman

<ro...@sarlet.com>:

>Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:

[...]

>> The Vespa Ciao was available in two versions, as a 25 km/h mofa and as a
>> moped. If you don't know what to look out for, you won't notice the
>> difference between these variants. Many e-bikes are also available in
>> two versions, which are equally indistinguishable, because the _are_
>> mostly identical. Even the motors are more or less identical, Bosch

>> selling a full range of motors. Many of them are throttled to 25

>> km/h and 250 W rated continuous power, some to 45 km/h and 500 W.

[ ... by the motor electronics, I should have added]

>>
>> Some of these vehicles were made bicycles by law, but they weren't
>> bicycles to begin with, because even the first e-bikes had enough power
>> to replace an essential part of what makes a bicycle a bicycle: the
>> human propulsion.
>>
>> Look at your own power curve, even just doubling your average power over
>> a time span most probably would make you a potential winner of a
>> national cycling race. +100%, doubling your own power, thats where
>> E-Bikes/Pedelec started, many years ago. Now Bosch motors are
>> advertised with 340% and 600 Watt _plus_ your own power. And that's
>> just some arbitrary limit from Bosch, they might offer 400% and 1000W
>> anytime. At the high end and not cheap, of course.
>>
>> It is just crazy to call motorcycles powered like that bicycles.
>>
>>
>I’d personally call such mopeds and I believe uk law would treat them as
>such.

You contradicted yourself within a few days.

We were talking about E-Bikes limited to 25 km/h. That series of motors
advertised with 250 Watt rated continuous power, motor support up to
340% and 600 Watt peak power is the version for E-Bikes limited to 25
km/h. Study the advertising material from Bosch, if you don't believe
me.

In post <EM4%M.300538$tGp5....@fx12.ams4> you wrote the opposite.

|Message-ID: <EM4%M.300538$tGp5....@fx12.ams4>
|From: Roger Merriman <ro...@sarlet.com>
|Subject: Re: Opinion- Electric bicycles
|Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2023 09:47:16 GMT

|
|Wolfgang Strobl <ne...@mystrobl.de> wrote:
|> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:18:13 -0500 schrieb AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org>:
|>
|>> https://www.cycling-insights.com/slider/the-true-environmental-impact-of-e-bikes/
|>
|> That's an advertisement for an e-bike conversion kit, utilizing a 250 W
|> front hub geared motor (eeek!), controller, display, and one of two
|> battery sizes (90 Wh and 180Wh) in the form of a powerbank. 2.6 kg for
|> the big version. Legal for 32 km/h at max in UK, 25 km/h in most of
|> Europe.
|>
|Uk it’s 15.5 Mph or 25 Kph beyond that it’s an illegal motorcycle unless
|you want to get it approved and insured taxed and so on…
|

|Which is about right for E bikes main purpose ie either EMTB or commuting.